Sunday, 16 February 2014
Barrie Cassidy: Now we'll go to our programme guest and this week it's the Immigration Minister, Scott Morrison, who joins us from our Sydney studios. Minister, good morning, welcome.
Scott Morrison: Good morning, Barrie.
Barrie Cassidy: How many Australian naval ships entered Indonesian territorial waters in December and January?
Scott Morrison: Well, that's a matter for a review that's currently in the process of being finalised and briefed to our regional partners and that's something that there will be a bit more said about once the unclassified version of that report, which is going and has been overseen by the CDF and the chief executive of Customs once the unclassified report is published, then those matters can be addressed there.
Barrie Cassidy: Do you know the answer to the question?
Scott Morrison: Of course I do.
Barrie Cassidy: Why can't you tell us now?
Scott Morrison: Because that is the subject of a report which has gone to the CDF and has gone to the chief executive of Customs and the appropriate way for their report to be released is on, is in the manner that they've determined.
Barrie Cassidy: But why would that piece of information be in any way, why would it compromise the government's position?
Scott Morrison: I'm not going to pre-empt the report Barrie, that's all I'm saying.
Barrie Cassidy: How much of that report, then, will be released?
Scott Morrison: There will be an unclassified report that will be released once we've gone through the appropriate briefings.
Barrie Cassidy: Will it explain how it happened and why it happened?
Scott Morrison: It will go into the matters that have been investigated.
Barrie Cassidy: And it will explain how it happened?
Scott Morrison: It will release its findings, yes, and its recommendations and its narrative on what occurred.
Barrie Cassidy: Will the unclassified section of that report explain to the Australian people how this happened, why it happened and why it won't happen again?
Scott Morrison: There will be an unclassified report and you will be able to read it when it's released.
Barrie Cassidy: And then we can back that judgment.
The Indonesian Navy report argued the incursions may have been intentional, said in this era, navigation equipment is very sophisticated.
Scott Morrison: That's false.
Barrie Cassidy: What's false about that?
Scott Morrison: Well it wasn't intentional at all.
Barrie Cassidy: And what satisfied you of that?
Scott Morrison: They've conducted a very comprehensive review of these matters and that will be contained in the report that they release.
Barrie Cassidy: There is a suspicion clearly in Indonesia that it was intentional. How will you disabuse them of that notion?
Scott Morrison: We'll be sharing the findings directly with them.
Barrie Cassidy: And do you think based on what you already know they will be satisfied with what you have to say, that without question, it was not intentional?
Scott Morrison: Well, that's a matter obviously for Indonesia as to how they judge any report that's been given to them. But let's just go back over the history and with the first thing we did when this was brought to our attention is that our chief of navy spoke to his counterpart in Indonesia and had a lengthy discussion. There will be further discussions along those lines in relation to this report. It was inadvertent, it was contrary to the government's policy and a thorough report and review has been conducted and we'll be sharing that with our counterparts in Indonesia.
Barrie Cassidy: The Indonesian Navy report that I referred to had a photograph of burn wounds on a hand and it said, and this is the quote, 'Resulting from being forced to hold on to the ship's engine by the Australian Navy.' Does it concern you that an official Indonesian Navy report would make such an assertion?
Scott Morrison: Well, Barrie, constantly repeating these claims, whether it's citing that report or citing anything else on the ABC, doesn't make these claims any more true than the day you first reported them. So, look, I note that, Barrie, but there is no substantiation to these claims. There never has been. The review that was done in the normal course of events that follows any operation was conducted, assurances were given to me and General Campbell on that basis. I'm satisfied with that and there's been nothing, nothing that has been presented that warrants any further review.
Barrie Cassidy: Can you, though, dismiss just as lightly a report from the Indonesian Navy as you can a report from an asylum seeker?
Scott Morrison: Yes, because I know the facts.
Barrie Cassidy: How again will you disabuse the Indonesian Navy of their notion?
Scott Morrison: They'll be matters if they come up in conversation with Indonesians that we can deal with directly, particularly as we go through this process of briefing them on the findings of the review we've taken into the incursion, border incursion matters.
Barrie Cassidy: And you've established the facts, of course, without speaking to the person who made the allegations?
Scott Morrison: There's a normal process that's followed any type of operation Barrie, and I have great confidence in the way Border Protection command and the Navy and Customs and Border Protection conducts these matters. Whether others have that confidence, I'll leave that to them, but I certainly have it.
Barrie Cassidy: But you describe it as a normal process, wouldn't a normal process, as part of that wouldn't you talk to the person making the allegations?
Scott Morrison: Well Barrie, these are unsubstantiated claims by persons who have large vested interests in making those claims. I'm not going to entertain that. I'm not going to entertain the tactics of smugglers and others who seek to throw these sort of sledges around and hope that they will be endlessly repeated in the Australian media as a way of trying to undermine a policy that is working and as you know, Barrie, we have now gone over eight weeks without one successful people smuggling venture reaching Australia. Now that is news I welcome, it's news I hope most Australians, if not all Australians, welcome.
Barrie Cassidy: What are the factors at work there? Clearly it's the monsoon season, that's one factor. How much credit would you give to the previous government over its PNG [Papua New Guinea] solution?
Scott Morrison: Well, particularly the last eight weeks, Barrie, this time last year there were around 1500 arrivals over that period.
Barrie Cassidy: But the PNG solution wasn't in place this time last year.
Scott Morrison: But certainly our policies are in place this time and we were having arrivals up until 19 December and certainly since the 19 December there's been a whole escalation of our policies and the way we're doing things at sea and that has had, I think, the overwhelming significant impact on what we're seeing at sea.
Barrie Cassidy: The Indonesian Foreign Minister has, talking about the turn-back strategy, quote, 'It threatens the negotiation of a code of conduct designed to repair the relationship.' Clearly he's offended by the policy.
Scott Morrison: The Australian government is doing simply what we said we would before the last election. I don't think we could have been any more clear about what our policies are. This has obviously complicated by issues out of the government's control, regarding the Snowden issues that have been around over this period of time. Indonesia took a decision at that time to suspend cooperation on other cooperative activities we were undertaking, which is their right to do so, but equally it's the Australian government's responsibility to ensure we do what we need to do on our borders lawfully as we are and that is simply this. Any vessel seeking to enter Australia's waters illegally will be intercepted and will be removed.
Barrie Cassidy: You are being true to yourself and true to your policy, as you say, but nevertheless it does seem to be offending the Indonesians, to the point where they're now going to raise this issue with the US Secretary of State, John Kerry.
Scott Morrison: They're welcome to do that. We've held a very consistent dialogue with Indonesia over all of these issues and that's been continuing and it will continue into the future. But one of the long standing irritants to this relationship has been this issue of vessels coming to Australia. We're addressing that, we're looking forward to the time, hopefully not too far into the future, where it is addressed and the relationship can move on to other matters and that is why we will always take the approach that it's our sovereign responsibility to protect our borders and that's what we're doing.
Barrie Cassidy: What do you think John Kerry would do about it anyway, even if he does regard it as a global issue?
Scott Morrison: That's a matter for Secretary Kerry, it's also a matter for the Indonesians. I'm sure they'll have a lot to talk about during his visit. But from our perspective we're doing what we need to do on our border and we respect Indonesia's territorial sovereignty and that's why we were so quick to both publicly and privately brief the Indonesians on what had occurred on those very regrettable occasions and why we're continuing to share with them the direct findings of the review that we've undertaken into those matters, because it is not our policy to breach Indonesia's territorial sovereignty. We respect their territorial sovereignty as I know they respect ours.
Barrie Cassidy: And the other issue that they seem to displease them is the lifeboats issue and they say that that's more severe than towing back boats; 'We strongly protest.'
Scott Morrison: Again they have every right to raise concerns and issues with us, as they do, but without going into the operational details of what we do at sea, I mean it's important that when we conduct our operations we conduct them safely and we have at the top of our list the safety of life at sea and where we take steps to protect safety of life at sea, then I think that's something that I think all Australians would expect us to do.
Barrie Cassidy: So you will go on utilising these lifeboats?
Scott Morrison: I'm not confirming the use of lifeboats. I think you can see I'm doing very carefully Barrie, but what I can ensure...
Barrie Cassidy: Well we've seen a video of those lifeboats.
Scott Morrison: Well Barrie, that's for others to comment on. But what I'm saying is our policies to stop the boats continue. It's our responsibility as a government. It was our promise to the Australian people and it's a promise we're keeping and will continue to keep.
Barrie Cassidy: Three days ago an Indian student took his own life at a detention centre in Melbourne. He was in that centre because he overstayed his visa. Could that have been avoided?
Scott Morrison: Could he have avoided overstaying his visa?
Barrie Cassidy: Is there a better way to deal with a student who overstays his visa?
Scott Morrison: Well Barrie I want to be careful on this matter. It's the subject of a police investigation at the moment which could obviously then go to a coronial inquiry and this individual was in detention only for a relatively brief period of time. He went in there in January and there are a range of other very personal and complicating factors around this case, which for privacy reasons I think it would be very unfair for me to canvass on your programme. This is a very complicated and tragic case and it's one that, you know, you would always hope to be avoided. But to I think bring this down to a simple baseline of people being in detention would be to completely misunderstand and over-simplify a very tragic and complicated situation.
Barrie Cassidy: So you're saying there are factors at work here that go beyond the sort of conditions and stresses that come with being in a detention centre?
Scott Morrison: Yes.
Barrie Cassidy: OK. Now on Friday at a Senate hearing there were 16 denominations, churches, who talked about the government's position on the migration act. You want to change it to give you more discretionary powers. Now they said, they say that would allow you to play God.
Scott Morrison: I don't agree with that. It's simply the arrangements that were previously in place effectively but with this one improvement. What used to happen previously to ensure our complimentary protection obligations were honoured was at the end of a refugee claim, if that was unsuccessful, then a case would be elevated to the minister to consider any complimentary protection measures. What I will ensure under the measures I've put forward in the Parliament and the administrative arrangements that will support that, is that any complementary protection issues that are identified in the conduct of interviews or others will be immediately elevated, because I know when I was Opposition one of the issues those very churches had was that it took so long for complementary protection elements of any claim to be assessed. I'll fix that, but equally I'm not going to put in place and I don't want to have in place a statutory process that basically just puts another product on the shelf for people smugglers which is what I'm seeking to remedy.
Barrie Cassidy: A former minister, though, Chris Evans, said that it gave him too much power, the workload was too great and the churches are saying the taskforce, that if the minister gets it wrong there could be dire consequences for the individual.
Scott Morrison: Well, I think what's important is that you take all the advice and have the full resources of the department to assist with these decisions. I'm not going to comment on Senator Evans, that's for him to reflect on. I'm certainly committed to this task and ensuring all these matters are considered fairly and quickly. Senator Evans thought it was the right idea to roll back border protection policy which saw over 50 000 people turn up on over 800 boats and over 1100 people were dead. So I'm not going to start citing Senator Evans as a model in this area.
Barrie Cassidy: Now just finally a report in The Australian yesterday, the government is considering spending $3 billion to buy giant unmanned drones to patrol the borders that would be used, at least in part, to track asylum seekers and illegal fishermen. Is that under consideration?
Scott Morrison: Well, I wouldn't be confirming one way or the other what cabinet or NSC would be considering Barrie. I think that would be highly inappropriate.
Barrie Cassidy: If you were to invest that sort of money though in unmanned drones that would suggest you'd think this problem is going to be around for a long time yet?
Scott Morrison: You're assuming that any such proposal would only be addressing those sorts of issues and I'm sure that after matters are fully considered in their proper context appropriate statements will be made.
Barrie Cassidy: Minister, thanks for your time this morning.
Scott Morrison: Thanks very much, Barrie.
URL:http://www.minister.immi.gov.au/media/sm/2014/sm211847.htm
Last update: Monday, 17 February 2014 at 16:18 AEST